Africa’s new role on the multipolar world stage

Interview with South Africa’s Foreign Minister Naledi Pandor

(29 August 2023) Ahead of the second Russia-Africa Summit in St. Petersburg, Russia Today conducted an exclusive interview with South African Foreign Minister Naledi Pandor* on 26 July 2023 about relations with Russia, the upcoming BRICS Summit, the global economy and other issues affecting the world today.

The summit received hardly any attention in the media of the Western world and linked to this isolation or public disinterest of Western media, it is also hardly known what positions the African states represent. The RT interview of the South African Foreign Minister with RT presenter Rory Suchet, transcribed and documented here by “Swiss Standpoint”, is an opportunity to learn more about the awakening African self-confidence.

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Rory Suchet: I have the great privilege and honour to speak today with Dr Naledi Pandor, the Foreign Minister of South Africa, here in St Petersburg, for the second Russia-Africa Summit. The last one was in 201; it takes place every four years. But so much has changed in the last four years, since the last summit, and we are here at the forefront of a burgeoning multipolar world.

Minister Pandor, I am very pleased that South Africa is represented here. What are your expectations for this summit and what is South Africa’s objective here?

A broad range of partnership areas

Naledi Pandor: Well, I think the strands are many. Firstly, it is about continuing the relationship that has been built over many years between Africa and Russia. It is a very important relationship for us. Especially for South Africa, considering the role that the Russian people have played in our own struggle for freedom. So, it is a relationship of brother and sister, of comrades and friends. It is important to continue that.

The second is to continue to forge strong bonds to advance the development goals of the African continent and to ensure that the commitment that Russia has shown and expressed over many years will take place through the programmes that we have agreed together and their actual implementation in practice.

The third area is, of course, people-to-people exchanges. We have a great common interest in the creative arts, in history, in a number of core policy areas: security, trade. So, we have a broad range of partnership areas in mind, that is the real reason for our presence.

The fourth and perhaps most important point, and I am very pleased that President Putin has agreed to this, is the continuation of the talks that started earlier this year on the role of Africa in finding a peaceful solution to the current conflict between Russia and Ukraine. So, I expect that our leaders will use their presence here in St Petersburg to continue these initial talks, which in their first attempt were to start talks between Africa and Russia and between Africa and Ukraine, and now hopefully to discuss the next steps.

Minister, how did it go when the African delegation travelled to Kiev with the African Peace Initiative? What were the reactions? What can you tell us?

I think the lines of communication are open, with both leaders. Both leaders are strong leaders, and I don't think it was only Ukraine that was tough, but also President Putin. But what was very positive was the reception that the African leaders received. They were open to what they were putting forward and, as I said, at this particular summit, they were also ready to continue the discussion.

And that is extremely important, because we are the first group of leaders to have that access to both the Ukrainian and the Russian leadership.

Adverse has created such an atmosphere of hostility that they can only talk to one and not the other. So, I think Africa is in a unique position to play a very important role.

What do you think African nations, and South Africa in particular, can bring to the United Nations in terms of balancing this multipolar world and giving Africa a proper place on the stage. What do you think your continent can bring to the UN and perhaps propose for some kind of renovation in New York?

The United Nations must remain the leading multilateral institution

As I am sure you know, South Africa went through a very terrible and agonising period of apartheid. We were oppressed by a minority oppressing a majority. We fought a heroic battle against power and therefore have experience in dealing with injustice. And a large part of the world actually supported the apartheid state for a very long time. There were very few friends who stood by us when we were fighting this fierce battle. So, I think that because of our experience of oppression, we are very well placed to understand the meaning of freedom, to promote democracy in its full meaning and to support representativeness. Part of the political definition that we give ourselves as South Africans is unity and diversity. This means that we reject racism and all forms of prejudice.

And I think we should also bring this to the multilateral stage. When we talk about reforming the United Nations Security Council, it is about stronger representation, democratic processes. The Security Council has failed the world because we have still so many conflicts all over the world. This means that the mechanism needs to be rethought so that we can ensure peace and security.

We believe that the United Nations is still the number one multilateral institution and we do not want to support any more attempts to build any other global multilateral body.

What we would like to see is a reform and strengthening of the UN. From time to time, the United Nations has been misused for political purposes. Some have turned it into a weapon against others. We need to put an end to that. And I think we need a variety of structures and mechanisms that allow for democratic processes. For example, in the context of the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, the General Assembly was suddenly given a kind of decision-making role. But normally it does not have this role. So, I hope that such changes will also be made in the future, so that the General Assembly will have a real meaning and people will not have the idea that it is 15 countries that can determine the fate of the world.

That is what we hope for. There are indeed signs, as you said, that the world institutions have been turned upside down. It could be that we will see a global reshaping of multilateral institutions and processes. I hope that will happen and I think Africans must not miss this moment because it is probably a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and if we miss it, I am not sure that the opportunity will ever come again so soon.

Was South Africa put under pressure by certain business partners not to attend the summit? Or were any of your neighbouring countries put under pressure not to attend this summit here in St. Petersburg?

I am sure you know that South Africa is a country that does not allow itself to be pressured by anyone. So, I think the friends have learnt over time that they have to be very careful with us. But no, there has been no such approach. And if it ever came to that, I would of course make it public immediately!

So, when we talk about developing a backbone, I think each of us has a backbone, and it has to be our own backbone that is strong.

It is time for our continent to realise that it has the possibility to be an extremely powerful part of the world. We need to be much more in control of our own capabilities, our resources and manage them in the interest of the African continent and not have the idea that we owe anybody anything because that is the neo-colonial ideal. We need to start understanding our own power and use it for the benefit of Africa.

When you say that Africa should be responsible for its sovereignty, for its infrastructure, its mineral resources, for example. Who is now responsible for that? Is it not Africa itself?

If you are oppressed, you have to change the situation yourselves

It is a number of forces. I think there are private sector companies; there are countries that are abusing Africa’s resources, it’s known, it’s documented, you can talk to intelligence sources. Africa exports its mineral resources in the raw. They are not refined on the continent. We have the African continental free trade agreements to promote intra-African trade.

But in terms of industrialisation, very few African countries are at a level of significant productivity in the manufacturing sector. That has to change. I think it is common knowledge that even those who claim to be our friends have in fact exploited the resources of the continent. And you know, colonialism was about mineral resources, about exploitation, but nobody, no oppressor will change a situation of oppression. If you are oppressed, you have to change the situation yourselves.

So, I think we need to develop a different relationship with our resources, manage them ourselves, develop the capacity to be innovative, to use partnerships – like a partnership with Europe or the United States or Russia, for our own interests and not for the interests of others.

In the meantime, there are countries like China that are investing in infrastructure in Africa, be it roads, schools, clinics, hospitals or electricity. As far as I know, Russia has invested in nuclear energy throughout the African continent, and I think in Egypt there are several new nuclear power plants in the final stages.

If China and Russia are investing in Africa in this way, is it fair to say that our professional partners in Europe or the United States are also investing in the same kind of humanitarian aspect that some of these other Eastern partners may be doing?

I have been very clear and categorical in my earlier remarks. One of the features of our own political practice is that we try not to be unilaterally oriented. So, we are not tied to any particular country. That is very dangerous. We had that during the so-called Cold War. And Africa suffered a lot from being seen as leaning towards the West or other countries. So, I was extremely judicious in asserting our independence. That is very, very important.

China is a very good friend to us as South Africa and to the African continent. I can see the change in infrastructure in several countries on the continent. But as an African who is honest and analyses, I know that we are not yet where we want to be. I think the element of change that needs to take place is to own our resources completely, to ensure that we add value, to ensure that we don’t export raw materials and buy back the value added at very high prices. We have to ensure that we add value and sell it as commodities.

So, we have to change African conditions. And I am not afraid to say, “we change them”, whoever the friend is. And that is very important because my interest is in our continent, our people. And whoever tries to exploit us and diminish our capabilities, whoever that is, whether they claim to be a friend or not, we will take care of them and we will act.

What do the BRICS nations mean today to the world?

Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa and perhaps 40 other countries, want to join the BRICS strategic partnership, this strategic alliance that is growing faster than many people can imagine.

In recent years, the BRICS have been a nice idea. The investments in infrastructure, also the new development bank. And then it got a bit quiet for a few years, or maybe there was more going on behind the scenes.

Minister Pandor, every week there is a new development in the BRICS family. More and more countries want to join. It’s almost like a new front line, a vanguard, I think.

As China said when Xi Jin Ping was in Moscow a few months ago, we're going through the biggest change in 100 years. And these changes are coming from Russia and China, that’s what he said.

But look at the BRICS countries, Madam Minister, or this grouping of strategically important countries around the world. All these countries want to join. Saudi Arabia, for example, wants to join. Energy-rich nations want to join, nations representing the world's workforce want to join, nations representing the most geostrategically important ports want to join.

Minister Pandor, what do the BRICS nations mean today to this world that was so focused on Western hegemony? And now we see what this sudden growth, this multipolarity means Madam Minister, what is going on with the BRICS countries? That also plays a big role in your country.

Certainly. We are discussing enlargement, which is very exciting. But I think the BRICS should really be congratulated on the New Development Bank (NDB). It’s a bank that works, we had a very positive rating in terms of the world financial rating, and we have made a significant contribution to infrastructure investment and support in the post-Covid era for all the BRICS member states.

And the fantastic thing is that we have grown from five to three additional members, so we are now eight. And I expect that as more members join, more will join the Bank. But of course, the decision on enlargement is not up to me, it is up to the Heads of State and Government who will decide in August. We have done our job as Foreign Ministers and developed a clear set of guiding principles that we believe will help our leaders in their decision-making.

Reasons for the BRICS’ attraction to numerous countries

But why do people want to be part of the BRICS? BRICS is a new forum with progressive ideals that wants to focus on peace, security and development. We are not against anyone; we are not for anyone. We are working for the good of the world.

And I think you need a body of this kind. So everybody is interested in the BRICS countries because they see something different happening. We are not trying to weaponise the oceans, we are not trying to weaponise the forests, we are not trying to weaponise climate change. We want to work together to solve important development issues. And I think that's the attraction that the BRICS have for so many countries. I spend a lot of my time responding to countries who want to know when the time will come.

I can only imagine that interest is growing by the day. As I said, every week there is a new development in the BRICS family, there are so many dozens of countries that want to join.

I have to ask you this: professionally and personally, I find this a fascinating story. The BRICS summit is in August and there is a lot of talk about an actual BRICS currency, a commodity-based currency or a gold-based currency.

I personally think that these things take a lot of time. If you look at the European Union, how many countries had to agree on the euro, for example, these big differences between the smaller and larger economies. It's complicated.

But some people are talking about the BRICS currencies, which are five currencies, the renminbi, the real, the rupee and so on. Many people are hoping for an announcement of this possible new currency at the summit in August. Can you tell us something about that, Minister?

What about the BRICS currencies?

Well, I understand that the president of the New Development Bank is going to address the leaders on this issue, and we hope to get a sense of what the future will look like. I think we need more fairness in world trade, and we need to make sure that financial systems and institutions do not become so politicised that they become a barrier to trade.

So greater diversity is extremely important. Because as soon as you become tied to one currency or one system, you become a kind of hostage, and we have to stop that. We need free trade, sensible systems, financial security, but you cannot be tied to one system.

The time has probably come to think about alternatives. So I hope that the BRICS summit will give us some direction. But I think this is something that is not the responsibility of the foreign ministers. So, we are relying on the President of the Bank and ultimately the BRICS finance ministers to give us a sense of what is possible. But as I said, given the turbulence in the world today, the moment for change, the moment to rethink is now.

There is turbulence in the world today, trouble spots and conflict zones, but why is now such a good time for change, Minister?

Well, I think for the first time the hostility between nations and between powerful forces in the world has come out in the open. The trade war between the United States and China, two very big powers in the world, has broken out openly.

We have the Russia-Ukraine conflict and the role of NATO in that conflict. So, suddenly, very powerful elements are facing each other and have to find answers in this context. And the answers will not be the ones we know, they will have to be, in my humble opinion, an update a refresh.

Many new developments in the pipeline

There is so much movement in the world today when we talk about the BRICS countries, the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, ASEAN, the Global South and of course the African continent. Some people call these groups a de-dollarisation coalition. They are turning away from the American dollar. I think it has been the reserve currency since the great patriotic war, the Second World War.

But countries are turning away from the dollar. They are increasing trade in national currencies. It's almost as if every week there is a new development, Madam Minister, with new countries joining together to create a coalition to abolish the dollar. Why now of all times?

Well, I think part of it is the feeling of being held hostage and the desire to free yourself from that feeling. I noticed that you mentioned all these regions, but not Africa, and it is very, very important that you include us, because we are an incredibly important part of the world, and of course we have these important mineral resources that are so important for the further development of the world. So, you cannot exclude Africa, that is very important.

Nevertheless, I think you have to be careful about having too many organisations, because then you lay the groundwork for conflict rather than cooperation. I think there will come a point when these different organisations talk to each other about convergence and how this can be achieved. And I think that the BRICS could be a very important instrument for such a convergence.

That is exactly what I wanted to say. For example, when I talk about the Global South, I am not excluding Africa at all.

When I speak of the BRICS countries, I also mean Africa on a large scale. I recently read a report from Moscow which said that every African country was invited to join the BRICS countries. Are you aware of that?

That is not true. We are not inviting people to join. Right now, we have an outreach component of BRICS activities. (Outreach/involvement) It is an outreach invitation to the heads of regional organisations around the world.

Normally South Africa chairs it and invites all the African heads of state and government. So, we have invited the heads of state and government as well as the heads of regional bodies like the Gulf Council (Gulf Cooperation Council), ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) and so on. So, this is a normal process that we all follow when we chair the BRICS Forum.

The Russia-Africa Summit is one of the rare opportunities to get people around the table, to get everybody under one canopy to talk about common goals. Can you give me a little taste?

Do you have any surprises or secrets up your sleeve to reveal at this summit? Any major concerns, new plans, new initiatives. Maybe give me a little secret tip.

Foreign ministers always have secrets up their sleeves (laughs). No, I think the world is at a disturbing moment. I don't want to downplay the threat that we face as a global community if we are not able to solve the current challenges.

“As a continent, we are concerned about food security”

You know that as a continent we are concerned about food security, for example. So, the Grains Initiative is very important, and we would like to see it resolved in a way that takes into account both the concerns of Russia and the concerns of the African continent.

So, these are issues that we would like to think about more intensively. You know, I often talk to my colleagues about grain exports and about the impact of unilateral sanctions, that is, sanctions that are not imposed through the United Nations system but are imposed by individual countries on other countries. And when I tell friends that these unilateral sanctions always have terrible effects, especially for developing countries, they say to me: “But we don't have sanctions on food, we don't have sanctions on this and that”, and I say: “But we feel the effects”.

I think we need to solve all the food security issues, and that would be part of the, I think, more important side conversations that will take place here.

I also think that issues of trade will play a big role. And increasingly, issues of the digital economy and digital security are becoming global issues that we need to agree on, because to stop cyber-attacks and to ensure cyber security, we need to work together and share resources. This will be the subject of important discussions.

I see our security advisors are meeting and we are looking forward to seeing what comes out of that, also in terms of deliberations. We all have quite large economic delegations, so I hope that some agreements can be signed.

When you talk about the Black Sea corridor and the grain initiative: I heard in Moscow that the Grain Initiative was only temporarily suspended. It has not been closed and the Kremlin has said that it is open to further negotiations on the resumption of the Black Sea Corridor grain passage.

Well, Lady Pandor, Foreign Minister of South Africa, I could talk to you all day. It was so enlightening, really fascinating. We are very proud that you have come to St Petersburg for this summit. Thank you very much for your time today. Thank you very much. I am happy to be here. Thank you for this opportunity.

* Grace Naledi Mandisa Pandor, born in 1953 in Durban, obtained a BA in History and English at the University of Botswana in 1977 and graduated with a MA at the University of London. Back in South Africa she was awarded a MA in Linguistics at Stellenbosch University in 1997. Before becoming the Minister of Education in 2004, Naledi Pandor was involved in educational issues in various ways. She taught English in both Botswana and London and then lectured at the University of Botswana before joining the University of Cape Town in 1989 as a senior lecturer. Following South Africa's first democratic election in 1994 Mrs. Pandor was elected to Parliament. In 1998 she became the Deputy Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces (NCOP) and in 1999 she was elected Chairperson. Since 2019, Mrs. Pandor is the current Minister of International Relations and Cooperation. Previously, she served as the South African Minister of Higher Education, having also held the post from 2009–2012. She was Minister of Home Affairs from 2012–2014

Source: “South African FM speaks to RT ahead of Russia-Africa summit”, https://www.rt.com/shows/rt-interview/580348-naledi-pandor-russia-africa-summit/, 26 July 2023

(Transcript by “Swiss Standpoint”)